s2 EP3: Jessica Mcilveen
Jessica Mcilveen had no idea what was happening to her when she first started to experience anxiety in 2017. Jessica found solace in yoga and meditation and then the counselor combined her two loves to create Kids Yoga Therapy. Here, she talks with Roxanne McCarty-O’Kane about the power of yoga with helping children overcome trauma and gives parents some tips on how to engage with their kids to see if yoga therapy can help them.
Watch the interview by clicking on the link above, or read on for a full transcription…
Roxanne: Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the Phoenix Phenomenon. My name’s Roxanne McCarty-O’Kane and this show is all about interviewing high profile Australians who have overcome some really incredible challenges in their lives and gone on to not only thrive from the experience, but to share their knowledge and expertise with with others around them.
And with me today, I have Jessica Mcilveen who’s the founder of Kids Yoga Therapy. Hello, Jess.
Jessica: Hey, Roxy. How are you?
Roxanne: I’m great, thanks. It’s really great day today. So I really appreciate you spending your time with me today. I know you’re a very busy lady, so it’s really great to have you on the show.
Jessica: My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.
Roxanne: All right. So just a little bit of background about Jess. Jess has been a social worker for four and a half years, specializing in child safety and foster care. She actually will tell you a lot more detail about her personal journey that led her to founding Kids Yoga Therapy, but the crux of it is that Jess did notice a gap in the support that was being given to children through the existing system and has found her own experiences as a way to revolutionize the way of healing and transforming the minds and lives of children and teens. And she’s already had such a big impact on so many young lives. So yeah, you’re doing really tremendous work in the community, Jess.
Jessica: Thank you, Roxy. Thanks.
Roxanne: Excellent. And I know that there are a lot of people out there who do work in the industry, but I think what makes you unique, Jess, is your personal journey and what you have been through to get to, I guess, even the realization of what you wanted to do and the trajectory that you wanted your career to take. So I’d really love you to share a bit of that with our readers today, and yeah, in your own words is always the best way to go. So tell us about the journey that you went on to get to the point of founding Kids Yoga Therapy.
Jessica: Yeah, sure. I’d love to. As you said, I was in foster care, working as a foster support worker and this was a job that I absolutely loved. What I loved about it was assisting children within the foster care system that have little to no control and power over their own lives. And I took that role very seriously. The decisions that we made really impacted the future of these children. I really loved helping the families, trying to support these children. There was a lot of education around trauma with these carers. So I really did love my role.
What I was getting frustrated with, though, by the end was that there was constantly placement breakdowns. And what that means is that children are being asked to leave these homes because their behaviors are becoming too much to handle. And it really just never sat well with me. I was always really frustrated about this, and I really just knew within myself that there was something else that could be done, or that I wanted to do. And I suppose with that, I decided to quit my job because I just didn’t feel like any of the services that we were providing either were having that great impact with the children either.
So, I decided I needed some clarity and that maybe I needed to go down a different path. So yeah, I quit my job and I decided that I was going to move to Italy, live the Italian dream, that generally seems to be my theme throughout her life is that I traveled for clarity. And so that’s what I did. And I packed my bags, I left the country, I had my visa sorted, but what did happen for me before I left was, so a few months leading up to it, I started experiencing anxiety and panic attacks. And it was a really terrifying time for me. And I don’t use the word “terrifying” lightly. I was really afraid to be within my own body. I was afraid to be with my own thoughts. I was afraid that this was now going to be my life.
So what it felt like to me was it felt like there was constantly a herd of elephants on my chest just standing on my chest, so I couldn’t breathe properly. I could not even see properly. So I remember the first day that I experienced it, the blurred vision came in and I couldn’t see, and my peripherals were out, and I thought I was having a heart attack, because I’ve never experienced anything like this before. And I really was terrified. And I couldn’t really sleep properly. I didn’t feel like eating, and all I wanted to do was lie in bed and try and sleep because I just wanted to get away from these really scary sensations within my body.
So I did go to the doctor a week before I left for Italy. So it was really crunch time. I had to decide what I was going to do. And of course, she confirmed it wasn’t a heart attack. So that’s a positive thing. But she just give me medication, and that really goes against my values and what I believe for myself. And I did get to a point where I was desperate enough to have these feelings disappear, so I did take a tablet and it just didn’t align with how I was feeling and my values. And I just knew that it wasn’t the right path for me.
So I did throw the tablets out. What I did decide was that if after 30 years I haven’t experienced this, then, I just reassured my … or I tried to, that, “Jess, this doesn’t need to be your future. It’s going to be okay.” So I committed to daily meditation and yoga, and for me, throughout life I’ve committed to things and not followed through with things, and it’s a bad habit. But with this, my wellbeing and my mental health was on the line. So I really committed to it and I made sure that I did it. Sometimes I meditate twice a day.
So I started that process, I still left Australia. And so I did end up leaving, went over to Italy, and I can honestly say that within a week and a half, the really scary sensations in my body were completely gone.
Roxanne: Sorry, were they still occurring at that stage, but you were just using the meditation and yoga as a way to keep it at bay?
Jessica: Yeah. So, it was still there, but it started to decrease. I started to feel less and less of those effects of the anxiety and panic, and everything within my body. And yeah, a week and a half since being overseas and they were completely gone.
And then even from that, doing that meditation, my mindset just completely changed even from before having the anxiety and panic as well. So it really was, in hindsight, a really beneficial experience and it really has created now my life today.
So, I just realized while I was overseas that maybe living in Italy was not the best suit for me. And I really didn’t want to come home and be a social worker. So, I was talking with my friend one day in the UK, and she just mentioned to me, “Meditation and yoga has had a great impact on you. Can you do that with the children that you want to work with?” And I still want to work with the children that had complex needs and that have experienced trauma. That’s always been my passion. And as soon as she said that, just this huge excited light bulb went off inside me, and I was up until 3:00 AM that morning, researching like crazy, does Australia do this? Is the research there? Who’s saying what? Where can I learn? Where the courses, where can I book it?
So I just went crazy with the research, and it was from that moment that I just knew with my whole heart that this was now the direction I was going to take with these children. So I booked my flight home, stopped off in Singapore, I did my course, and then a month later, Kids Yoga Therapy was born, and it’s been the best journey of my life, of my existence to date. So yeah, very grateful for the experience.
Roxanne: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess, did you ever boil it down, you’ve had the benefit of hindsight now, did you ever boil it down to figure out what it was that actually was the trigger for that anxiety and panic attacks for you?
Jessica: No. I can come up with theories, and possibly, one of them is that my body knew that it wasn’t the right move to go overseas for a few years. And I suppose because that has everything to do with your subconscious, but what I did learn about that, actually, was that we are so focused on always trying to find the root cause of things. And especially children that I work with, quite often they’re not going to be able to verbalize that. But that’s actually okay. So I could never verbalize it. But what I did do is I worked with my body, which is the most important thing to do when you’ve got these feelings. So that really affirmed for me that even if sometimes we don’t know the root cause, we can still find the solution by working with our body.
Roxanne: That’s really powerful, because you did, I mean, I just did it then. I’m like, “Oh, your mind must’ve figured it out.” I’ve gone straight here, haven’t I? But it’s all about …
Jessica: Yeah. Exactly. But that’s what we’re conditioned to believe. That’s what we’re taught we need to do. Everything is in our brain. And of course that’s understandable because that’s where our thoughts occur. But we then don’t realize that we actually get more information from our body than we do from our brain. Our brain is processing it, but it’s all coming from our body and what our senses are bringing in. So it was a very powerful lesson for me.
Roxanne: Yeah. I love that. That’s incredible. And now obviously you’re on the ground, you’re working with children every day now and imparting this knowledge and these skills with them. Tell me about the children that you work with, what sort of age range you’re engaging with.
Jessica: I work with children between the ages of 4 and 18. I’m working with a lot more at the moment from around 7 to 14. That seems to be the common age group. I do have a couple of four-year-olds actually now coming on board. And their needs vary. So I’ve got children that have experienced trauma. Within the foster care system I had children that have ADHD, I had children that have Down’s Syndrome, I had children that have got cerebral palsy. I’ve got children that have OCD, autism, of course, definitely. So the needs really do vary. And I love the one-one-one work that I get to do with them.
So that’s how I do it with my children. Mainly I do it one-one-one, I do do groups as well, but that’s mainly through organizations. I left one client’s house yesterday, and honestly, the absolute joy that was within me because he was just so engaged, and all he wanted to do, he was desperate to find something that helped him calm down when he felt really angry, because it’s really affecting his world and especially at school.
It’s just so hard to explain, but I just feel utterly joyful and privileged to be able to work with these children and their families.
Roxanne: It’s really radiating from you right now. It’s really beautiful.
Jessica: I had to tell everybody yesterday how much I love my job, but it’s just so wonderful to be able to help these families where this approach just is not common. It just hasn’t been offered. And parents want different approaches now. So I love that I get to do that.
Roxanne: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that that’s another thing too, more parents are looking outside of traditional modes of therapy and care, and there are so many allied services and complementary services that are really, really breaking new ground with these young minds. So yeah, it’s really incredible to be part of it, I imagine.
Jessica: Yeah. Really is. Yeah. It’s definitely the way forward and I’m so glad that I’m involved on that journey, and yeah, involved in it.
Roxanne: Excellent. That’s great. And so you’ve shared one case there, but I guess have there been any other, I guess, standouts for you, some children you’ve worked with where you really, really seen some true transformation? I’d love to hear about one of those.
Jessica: Yeah. There’s one girl that always comes to my mind, and she’s special to me. I’ve been lucky enough to work with her for just over a year now. And she’s very clever on taking on … I’m very careful with the verbal language that I use with children because they are listening and they do take it in. And there was one day where this young girl, she’s in foster care, so she has little to no control over her life, and that’s where a lot of the trauma is created for these children.
So I was really trying to empower her and help her to find that sense of power and control within her own mind and her own body. And I was sharing a story about how I walked over fire. And she was absolutely amazed she looked at my feet and she was like, “Whoa, they’re not even burnt.”
And started the, I guess, the breakdown of it all, that we have the power in our mind to control things, even though our world might seem out of control sometimes. We still have that power within us as long as we believe in ourselves. And then we started to do this activity. And I was lost in the moment and I said, “Oh, I’m not too sure if I’ll be able to do that.” And she said, “Jess, you are really powerful and I am really powerful. And that means we can do this together.”
And that moment of where she could relate it in a different context, that was later on in the session, and it’s those moments that are truly special, really special. And there have been moments where the most hyperactive children that I’ve ever come across, so they’re hyper vigilant because I live in really dysfunctional homes, and of course they’ve been diagnosed with ADHD. So there’s one boy, he would spend his time running around the classroom just constantly during our sessions. And then there was a couple of times when I was able to find what worked for him and actually calm whole body down. And he was laying down still, and mind you, stillness doesn’t always mean a calm mind, but it did for him. And he was still, and he was calm and his breathing changed.
And that’s good for his physical health, it’s good for his mental wellbeing and it’s good to activate that relaxation response in his body instead of always being in that fight or flight mode. So, they’re just another few examples of some really special moments when things can just all tie in that body or little mind. And sometimes it doesn’t happen straight away, but there is always something that will work for each child.
Roxanne: Absolutely. And I’d love to talk to you more about, I know each child as an individual independent, it’s a very subjective, I guess, field that you work in. You have to address each child at a different level and the different ages, they’ve all had different backgrounds. But I’d love to talk to you about, I guess, some of the common things that you see with how their minds a function. They’re sort of tied to this, perhaps some fears in the past, but they’re also maybe a bit anxious about what their future holds, and the importance of being able to anchor them in the moment to be able to process it all.
Jessica: Yeah. So there tends to be a couple of themes, and I think you’ve nailed it there in terms of saying that their past is really with them and they’re anxious about their future. But the thing is with children, they don’t know this consciously. They’re doing it all subconsciously.
So, a lot of the themes within these children are a sense of overwhelm most of the time. So, one of the examples that I always give, because a lot of parents can relate to this, is that explosive behavior that we see from children with complex needs. Sensory issues and autism and trauma and all of these needs, so there’s these explosive behaviors. And that’s a quite common thing. And the thing with these behaviors is, what generally happens after they’ve behaved that way is that their body and their mind feels a sense of calm. So there’s all this built up energy in their body and then there’s one trigger and they explode, they’ll throw things, swear, kick people, you name it, whatever they’ll do, but afterwards you often find that they’re quite calm. And that’s because they’ve just eliminated this burst of energy out of their body.
And it’s that that they’re seeking. So, these children are often seeking the calm that they don’t feel during their day, so they’ll seek it any means necessary. And sometimes it’s not explosive, sometimes it’s implosive. So they’ll direct all their energy towards themselves. And that can be just as harmful, that’s when harming behaviors or we’ve got that really inbuilt self hatred, which a lot of these children can have too.
So, that’s a really common theme is that there’s so much energy being built up because they’re just trying to make it through their day without getting into trouble, without hurting somebody else, without throwing something, without yelling at somebody, there’s all of these conditions. So they’re just trying to make it through. So that’s something that I commonly see.
And then of course it’s just constant anxiety. It’s a word that’s thrown around so much, but for these children, when they are receiving all of this sensory input, and quite often it’s not being processed correctly because of the different systems in their body that haven’t been developed properly, so they’re reading something into what they hear that maybe doesn’t mean that and they’re reacting over here in a completely different way, and they’re getting in trouble for doing it this way because we as adults see it as over here. And that’s the norm. So they’re just always anxious about what they’re going to give out. So that’s a common thing. But that just means that they’re constantly in their sympathetic nervous system, which is their fight, flight, or freeze system. And that’s just a system that’s affecting their physical health, which a lot of the time I see children with pain in their body because that’s how it’s manifesting.
And their relaxation response is underdeveloped, so that’s why yoga and meditation’s so perfect for them.
Roxanne: Yeah. Excellent. That’s great. Another thing I wanted to ask you about is, obviously yoga is one of the core things that you do engage with with these young people, but you’ve mentioned already a few working through activities and really trying to rewire some different segments of the brain so that they can process these things and reduce the overwhelm, so I’d love to see, maybe, some of the other ways in which you work with the children to overcome these things.
Jessica: Yeah. Sure. So, I guess from my social worker background, I really try and bring in a lot of that stuff into my sessions as well, depending on what the child needs. So I suppose what that looks like is, there’s a lot of emotional identification work done, but it’s really done in a way that doesn’t require verbal language. So it might be that if I’ve got a child, for example, the little girl that I work with with Down’s Syndrome, we really tried to find either colors or shapes or animals or cartoon characters that she loves and attributes that to an emotion.
So we’re really trying to steer away from sad, angry, frustrated, those emotions. We still use them afterwards, but we really need to find something else that they actually can relate to. So a lot of these children can’t really relate to those words. So that’s one way that I try and, outside of the yoga realm, work with these children.
And the other ways are using language and then incorporating that into their physiology as well. So, I suppose that is a bit of yoga, but we’re really trying to bring up the fears that these children might be feeling and instead of the physiology always being in that theme mode where I’m actually guiding them into the relaxation mode while that thought might be there. Because once we alter the physiology, then we can alter how our brain works.
And some other ways, we really want to alter the internal dialogue for these children as well. So constantly there’s always, I guess we call them mantras, but we want to always choose these positive affirmation sentences and often the children will create their own based on what they want to achieve for themselves.
And also, one of the things that I love developing with my children is a calm down plan. So there’ll be a sheet of paper, and the child will create for themselves five activities that they can do that they can turn to whenever they start to feel angry or frustrated or upset. And then what the parents will do is that up around their houses everywhere, the teachers will know, so it’s really important to work with the school as well because if the teachers are not implementing same strategies, then there’s inconsistency and each children in particular need consistency.
And then I guess also, I work with the parents quite a bit too. So there’s a lot of coaching help there from me in terms of what may be in their environment or the family dynamic or the parent-child dynamic, could we alter a little bit to help with the changes that we’re trying to create through this child.
So, yeah, you’re right. It’s not always about the yoga for me. That’s one of the modalities but I really try and incorporate the family in a holistic approach to make sure it’s long-term change and not just change for that hour that I’m with them.
Yeah. Perfect. That’s great. And I’m glad that you provided me a bit of a segue into parents there. Obviously they are an integral part of the success of your program and the work that you do with the children. But for those who haven’t yet connected with you, parents who may be looking for answers for their own children, what sort of advice would you give them to, I guess, maybe assess whether something like Kids Yoga Therapy or something along those lines would be beneficial for their children?
Jessica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, sure. So, I suppose there’s a few things to consider, is the age of your child. If you’ve got a child under the age of seven and they’re only receiving talk-based therapy, which just uses our prefrontal cortex, then I would question the level of effectiveness of that. Do you have somebody in your child’s life that is actually working with the body and the mind connection? And do the research yourself if you would like or definitely contact me if you would like some articles on the research because there’s too much out there now too. We know in the neuroscience world that the body-brain connection is paramount when we want to heal any type of illness or mental illness or disability or suffering in our bodies.
Also, this is one of the things is that if you keep doing what you’re doing, you’re going to keep getting what you’re getting. It’s a really important thing to realize. So if you are just trying the same thing over and over and you’re not seeing anything alter within your child or within your family, then it really is time to try something new. And this is not just in your child’s world, this is in your world too. So, there really needs to be a different approach if you’re not seeing any changes.
And I think when there’s anything do with the child and sensory information, I mean, again, I just keep coming back to the body, because that’s just what is so important. So if you’ve got OT support quite often, yoga and OT complement each other really well. If you don’t have OT support, then Kids Yoga Therapy is perfect also. So we’re quite aligned in what we do with our work.
And then again, if you really want, because I go within the homes, and it really gives me a great insight into the dynamic of you take your child to an office most of the time, and you don’t really see the ins and outs of the family. There’s no personal touch there and they don’t really get the ins and outs of what it’s like to be within your home. Whereas I do, I have the ability to do that. And so different ideas, then we’ll come up for me when I’m in your home, and there’s different level of support. I’m quite happy to sit there and have a cup of tea with you afterwards if you want to debrief about things. There just is a different level of support because I do go in the home, and I guess with my social worker background, then I’ve always got different tricks to be able to guide families to try as well. So, yeah. If you want to alter behaviors, then it’s worth trying, because our bodies will change if we work with them.
Roxanne: Absolutely. Excellent. And for those who are watching or listening that may have been drawn to your particular story because of your experience with anxiety and panic attacks, I’d love to see what sort of advice, obviously you found yoga and meditation were a great solution for yourself. What advice would you give to them as, I guess, a first step or first couple of steps to those who are brand new to those kinds of modalities of yoga and meditation? Some people do find that hard to just sit and be, but what would you recommend as maybe the first couple of steps they can take to implement that in their lives?
Jessica: Yeah, so start simple. And realize, too, that the way your child learns is by your modeling behavior. So if you would really love to implement this into your child’s life, then do it as a family activity. And that’s just powerful for bonding anyway. And I love family yoga sessions, which I do as well.
So start simple. And if the first thought comes to your mind that, “I’m terrible at meditating,” then I would rebut and say to you that you’ve got 30, 35, 40 years of a brain that has been using this same highway, okay? So it really is going to take more than one or two sessions to start creating a different highway in your brain to use. So really be kind to yourself and realize that every single person says that in the beginning, so it’s okay.
And so start off simple. And so what that could look like is a simple YouTube search on a child’s meditation, and lay in the bedroom with your child and do it. It could be five minutes, and you can find five minutes in your nightly routine. You can. And if it’s your priority to start making some changes, you’ll actually make time for the five minutes of meditation.
I have four steps of creating a really simple routine if you’re happy for me to go through that.
Roxanne: Yeah. Absolutely. That’d be great.
Jessica: This can go for as long and as short as you would like. So the first step I always say is create a mantra. So it needs to be a positive statement. I am, I have, I release, and have the child choose this. So it might be, for example, “I am kind to myself and my brother.” Or “I am kind to myself and my friends at school,” whatever’s going on for that child at the moment. So write that down, have them color it in, whatever it is. And then you would choose a breathing exercise. So, if you Google breathing exercises for kids, you’re going to find loads anyway. And it could be as simple as just blowing up your belly like a balloon. Let’s pretend that’s it. And then you want to choose maybe two to five yoga poses. And then at the end she wanted to choose a relaxation activity. So that could be two minutes of meditation.
So they’re the four steps and then you just bring it all together. So each yoga pose you do, you’re reminding the child to say that mantra to themselves and you’re doing that breathing activity with them in each pose. And then you get them in the relaxation pose. So if you want to start off simply, that’s probably the most simple way to do that. And you can do that in five minutes, 10 minutes if you want to. So that’s probably what I would start doing, and how to introduce your child to yoga.
Roxanne: Excellent. And I guess, when you are working the children with special needs and the background of trauma, is there an easy way for the parents and caregivers to, I don’t want to use the word “sell,” but get them to think that this would be a really good fun idea? All right? Yeah. What sort of ways would you recommend that they could use to introduce it to them? Let’s use that word.
Jessica: I would use whatever the child is interested in. A lot of the time, I will choose yoga poses and we create animal names. So if they love jungle animals, then we stick with the jungle theme. Or if they love princesses, then I try and get them to look like a princess in a yoga move, or we come up with princess names while we’re doing it. So whenever the child is interested in, then bring that into it. And children come up with very, very bizarre animals and won’t look like if you ask, but also you’re actually encouraging a child’s creativeness and imagination and for children that are constantly in their fear response system, there is little to no creativeness or imagination. So that’s also a very, very positive thing for these children.
So yeah, definitely creativeness, and use props, use things, something that they can feel, look at, smell, touch. They really need props. They can’t just use their little imagination for things. So I’ll use feathers and toys and bubbles and a magic wand and blocks and whatever you can find. One of the common things is resistance to this breathing. And that’s because teachers at school are saying, “Okay, we’re going to do a breathing exercise now.” And all the kids like, “Oh.” It can be boring. So if your child is resistant to the word “yoga” or to the word “breathing,” then don’t use the word. Try something else. So for a breathing exercise, do belly balloon activity instead of a breathing activity. So create a different name for it, is what I would suggest if there’s resistance. But yeah, make it fun and with music as well.
Roxanne: I love that. That’s great. And it would help the parents, too, relax into it as well. You’re trying to introduce a new routine that can be sometimes a bit stressful if you’re not nailing it the first time as a parent or caregiver. I know I am guilty of that. So yeah, just to taking that time to make it fun for yourself, and then as you said, your children will vibe off of that way and they’ll be like, “Oh, this is not so bad. Let’s go with that.”
Jessica: Exactly. Yeah. This is not a classroom session. It’s just a play activity.
Roxanne: Yeah. Excellent. Well that’s incredible. And, Jess, as I mentioned at the start of this conversation, you are such a busy lady, you’ve got so much going on for yourself. I just wanted to see if there was anything you wanted to let people know about that’s coming up for you this year.
Well I’ve constantly got workshops going on. So if you’re interested in workshops, then you just need to come over to my Facebook page, so the Kids Yoga Therapy Facebook page, and I always give the information on the upcoming workshops on there, and that’ll go all year. I will be doing family yoga days as well. So that’ll be on my page, too. And that’s a really amazing opportunity for families to come together. And I choose a topic each time. So the next one, the topic is going to be anxiety, so all of my activities will be based on me teaching you what you can do with your child at home or out and about if anxiety is something that they need to work on. So, that’s what I’ll be doing for the rest of the year.
This year is about creating accessible learning content as well, so everything in my own head, I want to be able to teach to everybody, really, and I can only be in so many places at once. So I’m going to start creating some online programs for parents to work through. So that will be this year as well. And, I suppose, also my new program of the parents’ support collective has begun this year as well. So that’s an opportunity for, I guess, parents that are really feeling isolated and alone within this journey of parenting a child with complex needs to be able to come together and support each other, but be guided by myself as well. And the goal of that is to really empower these parents who don’t really feel that sense of power and control over their lives at the moment, and to find new approaches with their child as well. So that, that has started this year and it’s really exciting.
For information on that, then you just need to email me, firstname.lastname@example.org, and I’ll send you all the information you need. And there’s always other exciting things popping up along the way. So, nothing else is confirmed yet, but of course I am working towards some other goals such as research is one of them. But yeah, always something new and exciting to look forward to, but they’re the main things for this year.
Roxanne: Excellent. No, that’s great. Thank you so much for sharing and it is wonderful that there are so many different ways that people can access that brilliant mind of yours. So thank you for, for letting them know how to do that. That’s incredible. And thank you so much for sharing what you do and the journey that got you to that point. I really think the work that you’re doing now with the young children, even with the parents is going to have such a flow-on effect for many years to come. So thank you for sharing that with us today, Jess.
Jessica: Thanks so much, Roxy. I really enjoyed sharing that with you all. Thank you. Thank you.
Roxanne: Wonderful. Okay. And for those of you watching and listening at home, the Phoenix Phenomenon season is just starting. We’ve got many more interviews lined up for you. So, to make sure you don’t miss out on any, make sure you like and subscribe the video or check out roxannewriter.com.au and subscribe to the TV Series newsletter there and we will send them directly to you.
Roxanne: So thank you again, Jess. I hope you have an amazing day.
Jessica: You too. You too. Thank you.