S2 Ep7: Robyn Ellis

Robyn Ellis is a lifestyle wellness influencer who openly shares her journey to overcome MS. Robyn was newly married when she was diagnosed and also decided to start a family while coping with the challenges of the central nervous system disorder. Here, she shares how she is now inspiring women to be empowered to take control of their health, wellness and healing the natural way as Inspired Robyn.

Roxanne – Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us for another edition of The Phoenix Phenomenon, where we interview high profile Australians and bring you the stories of their incredible journeys of transformation that they’ve gone through, and the challenges that they have overcome. They share their pills of wisdom with you so that you can take that and make some changes in your own lives as well. So, today I have with me Robyn Ellis. Welcome, Robyn.

Robyn – Thank you.

Roxanne – Not a problem. So, Robyn’s come to us today. She was diagnosed with MS in 2007 at the age of 32, and I’ve just been having a look on MS Australia, because, to be honest, I didn’t know a lot about the disease, and obviously there’s a lot of awareness that needs to happen in the country. But, MS essentially affects the central nervous system, and it interferes with nerve impulses within the brain, spinal cord, and optic nerves, and it actually affects more than 25,000 Australians and more than two million people around the world have been diagnosed with MS, usually the ages between 20 and 40. So that’s just a bit of background for all of you who are new to this as I am, but Robyn’s come to share with us today her journey from diagnosis to where she is now. And she’s been through some truly incredible evolutions in that state, in that phase, excuse me, and hopefully she’ll be able to share some advice and some tips for those who may find themselves with an MS diagnosis, or knowing someone who is going through their own journey at the moment. That’s enough from me. Robyn, I’d love to hear more about, yes, about yourself and what it is that you’ve gone through. So we mentioned before that the diagnosis for you came in 2007. I believe you were just newly we’d as well.

Robyn – Yes, it was around about, I think September 2007, my legs went numb. I was reading a book in bed, and I’ve been married in March that year, so–

Roxanne – Okay, alright.

Robyn – And I was working at a fitness club at the time, reading a book, had been at the treadmill that day jogging away, doing my training, a ll fittest I’ve probably ever been in my entire life, and yeah. I got out of bed, you know when your feet go to sleep, and they wouldn’t wake up. So that was a bit concerning, and I was thinking about it, and I had also been experiencing a lot of tiredness and fatigue over that space of weeks prior to that happening, and being spring as well tends to get allergies and things like that too going on. So, yeah, I went to the doctor very upset. I couldn’t get into my actual doctor at the time, so I found another one who let me in straight away, got me appointments, and said to me, it was either going to be a tumour on the spine or MS diagnosis. And so–

Roxanne – Wow, straight away.

Robyn – Yeah, and I was like, a bit stressful thinking about that. Yeah, the MRI machine was actually broken the day that I popped in, so I had to come back another day, so the process of being diagnosed went on for a couple of months. And I finally got my diagnosis, I believe it was early December, late November, early December 2007. And he said–

Roxanne – Wow.

Robyn – MS, textbook MS. There was lesions on my spine just up here behind my neck and in my brain around the cerebral cortex and a lot on the left-hand side.

Roxanne – Wow. Okay. And so, I guess for you, once you got the diagnosis and you realized what it was that was going on with your legs in particular at that time, did you look back and see that maybe some other symptoms had been presenting themselves that maybe weren’t as serious beforehand?

Robyn – I had been through my 20s, ’cause I was 32 that year. Through my 20s I had a lot of anxiety and depression, so anxiety attacks, a lot of stressful situations or just things that I would react to in a very stressful, anxious way. I had issues with bowel and bladder as well leading up to that time, and obviously fatigue. I know, if I look back now, and having done all the research in the last 11 years since being diagnosed, things like adrenal fatigue and possibly, I had chicken pox when I was 17, I was really sick from that, and then, all through my 20s, I had strep throat kind of illness and flus that just, were just totally would just knock me out. Laryngitis, tonsillitis, a lot of that kind of thing. Yeah, we’ll lead into what I’ve learned about that in more recent times and putting two and to together. I had been to bowel specialists and things like that for different issues with that. It’s not pretty kind of stuff to talk about, but yeah, it’s the rea–

Roxanne – It’s a fact of life, though, isn’t it?

Robyn – Unlike others that I know who have had optic neuritis, so they go blind in their eyes and they have vision problems, I haven’t so much had that. I have had tired eyes. I know when I was in year 10 in school I had to get glasses, ’cause I was struggling from looking from the blackboard down to my books all the time, I got a lot of eye strain and fatigue from doing that. So that could have been an early sign of optic neuritis if I look back and think about it.

Roxanne – Wow, yeah, yeah. Okay. And one of the things I’ve heard you say before is that MS affects people very differently. Like it can, if you have 10 people in a room, then they may all present with different symptoms and different challenges that they have to deal with. So I was wondering if you’d be comfortable sharing what your, how MS is presenting for you.

Robyn – Okay. Yeah, so obviously the first, or two years prior to the legs going numb, I had issues with my arm, carpal tunnel kind of feeling. I was having a lot of depression and anxiety, and just fatigue, and I forgot to mention that one. And I’d been to the neurologist, the same neurologist that I was diagnosed eventually, to see him. He had to do conduction tests on my arm, and he couldn’t find anything. He said, ah, I think it might be rheumatoid arthritis, we may send you to a rheumatologist and check that out. And then, I was like, ah, I can’t be bothered, it feels like it’s getting better, I’ll just leave it, and that’s what happens with relapsing-remitting MS, which is the type that I’ve got. So it just appeared, went away. Two years later, my legs went numb, I had that issue. And I also noticed, even prior to that, I was having continence issues, and I hadn’t had children. Like, you think that’s something that happens when you sneeze, or you’re out and about and just all of a sudden have an urgency to go to the toilet. That would happen for me, and I hadn’t had kids, so that was a weakness that was going on neurologically and affecting the bladder area for me as well, and bowel issues. Big anxiety, depression, weakness, coming back, lots of different things for me. Even leading to just not having a libido as well, in that side of things, which isn’t pleasant to talk about or mention in public, but–

Roxanne – No, but you’re really brave for doing so.

Robyn – And according to one of the neurologists that I had seen, my MS is quite a mild case compared to many. Like, I have never had, thankfully, a need to use a cane or a walker or anything like that. I’ve been able to walk, I have not had that debilitating, like you can’t get out of bed and you can’t move any part of your body kind of situation, but I know people that have had that, and that is pretty scary.

Roxanne – Yeah, absolutely. It can get very, very full on. So, tell me about the period, then. You’re newly married, your partner’s sort of going through this with you as well. How did you process and deal with the diagnosis?

Robyn – Well, I know that I was gifted a book when I was first diagnosed from the MS Victoria, ’cause I was living in Melbourne at the time in the western suburbs of Melbourne. And I started to read that, and I read about eight pages, and I had to put it in a top drawer, and it stayed there for eight years, literally, ’cause I could not face that. Other people gave me books to read, and all the natural therapies and things like that. I thought, I’ll try meditation, I’ll go do Qigong, I’ll do all of those things. And I was working in a fitness club, and eventually I’d changed jobs, and my husband supported me in that, helped me find a job working at Toyota, and just an office desk sort of job, not around people that were doing what I wished I could do, because I’ve been told at the time, oh, you won’t be able to do that high impact exercise anymore, and life’s going to change. And I’d been dealing with members wanting to cancel memberships in my role, and there were a few people prior to my NS diagnosis that I met that had left because their MS was getting to a point that they felt uncomfortable coming to the gym, or incapable of doing it anymore, and I had that thought in my mind, that’s gonna happen to me, so I don’t want to be around all that. As positive as I was trying to be. There were a lot of tears, a lot of crying myself to sleep at night, learning to use an injector, because my first lot of medication was taking an injection every day. And my hubby would support me with that and he would help me do the injections in certain parts, ’cause some parts of my body I didn’t like injecting, and it was uncomfortable. So he would help me with that, and just lots of hugs and cuddles. In fact, though, he actually didn’t take the reality of the MS diagnosis seriously initially. He–

Roxanne – Right.

Robyn – Like PMS or something, and he told me this–

Roxanne – Oh, goodness.

Robyn – So, it was kind of a bit surreal. And if I look back on it, particularly on that first year, it’s kind of surreal what happened. It was a lot of down and adjustment, and downtime and adjustment, and thinking about what we’re gonna do with our lives. And then, after a year, we decided to take 10 weeks off and go traveling around the world, ’cause you just don’t know what’s going to happen. And he’s from South Africa, so we’d go visit his family, and we had friends in the US, ’cause we both lived in the USA. And so we took that time out, and that really helped us to work out whether we wanted to start a family and have children, and what we wanted to do moving forward from there.

Roxanne – Yeah, absolutely. And have you heard of MS before your own diagnosis, or was it a completely new concept for you?

Robyn – I had, through the MS readathon, which most of us would know about–

Roxanne – Yes, yes.

Robyn – You ever read one of those books and get people to donate money to the MS?

Roxanne – Yeah.

Robyn – That’s how I knew about MS. We also had a distant relative that I never really knew, who had and MS diagnosis back in the ’50s, ’60s, but I didn’t really know. That’s all the link to the MS that I knew about. And the lady around the corner, actually, who I approached when I was first diagnosed, she had kids the same age as me that I went to school with. I actually knew her, and she’d been in a wheelchair and out of a wheelchair over the years, so I knew about MS from her as well.

Roxanne – Okay, all right. And you did touch on having the decision to make whether you wanted to start a family, have a baby, and you ended up–

Robyn – Yes.

Roxanne – Making the leap.

Robyn – Absolutely. She was born nine years ago next Wednesday, so.

Roxanne – Aww, cute.

Robyn – The week of, yeah. I was very pregnant this time nine years ago, and her–

Roxanne – Yeah.

Robyn – Was actually meant to be today.

Roxanne – All right.

Robyn – So we did, we came back from our 10 weeks and decided, yeah, it’s time, we’ll do it, and it didn’t take us very long. I was on an injection called Copaxone, which is glatiramer acetate, and that was a once a day, and at the time they thought, yeah, it’s safe for pregnant, but I wanted to be sure, so I went off that for three months before I started trying for a baby, and–

Roxanne – Sorry, what does that medication assist you with?

Robyn – It helps with the immunity, immune system.

Roxanne – Ah, right, okay.

Robyn – That’s what a lot of the MS drugs are designed to do.

Roxanne – Okay.

Robyn – MS is, like, attacking your nerves, and your nervous system, and your immune system. That was the one that I chose, and it was the mildest at the time. There were three choices when I was first diagnosed, now I think there’s like 15 or more of what make or do, and they range from being on tablets, intravenous infusions at the hospital every month, to injections, which was what. There were only three kinds of injections when I was first diagnosed as the treatment options, and I chose . I was also on antidepressant as well, so I went off those, too, because I didn’t want my child to be born needing to detox from it, so I did my best to control my mood and how I felt naturally.

Roxanne – Yeah. That would be a challenge in itself, when you’re going through all the hormone changes of pregnancy, and then, yeah, wow.

Robyn – Yeah, but I did that before pregnancy, so–

Roxanne – Yeah, yeah, absolutely took the steps beforehand. Absolutely. And how did you find out, I guess, about these other ways of supplementing and boosting your health naturally to offset weaning off those medications?

Robyn – Well, I resisted for quite awhile, and it was once I became a mom. When my daughter was one year old, I went through a procedure that was kind of new to the field and very controversial, and it hasn’t really been found to be effective, per se. There’s been a lot of controversy around it even then. So it sort of started there. I met a lady called Carrie Cassidy, through 69SVI Australia, at an MS walk, because I used to do the MS walk in Melbourne every single year since I was diagnosed, and I did a lot of promoting in the local area and in the newspapers and that for that as well to help raise awareness. So I met her, and it took me about a year to get the process in place for me to go try this out. So it was all about opening up the jugular vein with a balloon. They put a balloon through the jugular vein and open it up, and improve the brain flow from the brain through the jug–

Roxanne – Wow.

Robyn – I had that done about five times over the course of three to four years, and in the end, it just was not opening up on the left hand side. The way that they found out that I needed it done was, I went for an ultrasound on my jugular veins on both sides. They found on this side it was refluxing and the blood was, like, going up, and then coming back, going up, coming back, and on this side it was totally blocked.

Roxanne – Right.

Robyn – So they cleared it on both sides the first go in 2011, and it stayed okay on this side, and this side now compensates fully for this side, which, by the time I went for the last go around with that in 2014, it was no longer viable anymore.

Roxanne – Okay. All right. That sounds like a very scary procedure to go through, my gosh.

Robyn – It was scary, but it gave me back my life, because it gave me back hope which I hadn’t had at that time. I felt sensations coming back in my hands, I could feel the body temperature of my daughter’s bottles when I was warming her milk, and the temperature of the bath a bit easier, and just got some energy back and some feeling back. And it actually led me to going to the gym and taking her to mums and bubs classes at the gym, and doing a lot of workouts, and then finding a group of women that I could connect with and a personal trainer who was willing to look at MS and what kind of exercise was good for me to be able to do without overexerting myself and being able to say, well. And I ended up doing two lots of 12-week transformation challenges, and in that I learned a lot about diet and what works for me, and cleaned a lot of processed food out of my diet. And that was kind of like the first step in changing my lifestyle, unofficially, was doing a white ross challenge at the gym and learning about processed foods and how good I felt not having them in my life anymore. I just in that respect. And then, from then on in, I discovered I wanted to work from home. I was finding I needed something to do to bring some income in. And I started a couple of different businesses around about the same time, and one of them was a personal development business, and that got me working on how I was thinking in my mindset, and opened up my world to connecting with people that I was marketing out there to, and finding how, in Facebook land and YouTube land, and learning about what they’re doing for their health, and the different foods that they’re eating, and their diets, and their mindfulness and lifestyle. And through that personal development business, I learned about yoga. I’d done yoga before but not really understood it, and a lot of the people in that business were yogis, including the creator of the business, and I had had an interaction with him on a trip, and he was telling me about how he had knee troubles and whatnot and was doing yoga every day, and how he can run again, and just the changes in his body, and it inspired me to want to give up the gym and go just to do yoga. And I started doing that, and the change in my body then was just immense. So that was a game changer. There’s more to the story–

Roxanne – I’m sorry?

Robyn – There’s more to that from that yoga point as well. So, one girl that I met in western Australia, she was doing Quick Sugar, so there was that whole Sarah Wilson Quick Sugar campaign, and that. So I did that for a good year, cut out sugars completely. Didn’t notice too much of a change though for me, and this is where I feel a little different. And then I’d spoken to another girl who’d been to the Overcoming MS Retreat in the araveli, the Gola Institute, and I said, I’ve got that book in my top drawer, it’s been there for eight years, and that’s when I pulled that book out, read it again. I ran out straight away and booked myself a spot and went to that, and that was a big game changer, getting onto overcoming MS lifestyle.

Roxanne – Yeah. So you were ready at that stage, you’d done–

Robyn – Yeah, I worked on my head, and I got my body into shape, and I was active and in a different head, mind, body space, yeah. So I was ready for that side of things to really kick it into gear.

Roxanne – Amazing.

Robyn – So now I’m whole food, plant-based, with seafood, which is pretty much that theory. But I worked more so, not just on the food, also on the mindset, and working through your past and what’s happened to you, and those hurts, and learning about the power of laughter, and having fun, and being able to laugh, and how that can heal you, and yeah, just so many different aspects of living that were awakened from that retreat.

Roxanne – Aww, amazing. And sometimes it’s the inner work that’s the hardest for people to make it through, isn’t it, because there are so many challenges, and blocks, and hurdles that get thrown up when you’re trying to push through. What did you find was the way that you were able to jump over those, to clear them all?

Robyn – Well, it’s still a work in progress, ’cause we sometimes still fall down, as all humans do. It was a gradual thing. It’s just been, not being, just being patient and compassionate with yourself. And I found that, once I start changing one thing, then I understand now that there’s a flow-on effect and a process, and the next thing attracts to you. So you start changing one thing, and then the next thing comes along, and you incrementally just add that on and add that on, and add that new habit on. So it’s all about creating new habits in your lifestyle and integrating them, and it just becomes nature, and, yeah. I found going to retreats and going to personal development events and just immersing yourself completely helps to kick start it, and then get home and just trust in yourself to maintain that and to focus on that, why you’re doing it. Like, you’ve got the illness, you’ve gotta be polite, you’ve got a family to take care of, you’ve got a life that you want to live well, and it’s just holding onto that goal of wanting to be well and be healthy that keeps you in stead and keeps you in check to stay on track and not deviate from the plan and deviate from, like, have that donut that everyone else is eating. Like, I’ve got a willpower now that I never could have imagined I would have, because my why is so great that I want to be healthy and I want to be well, and I’ll choose to have my vegan dessert instead.

Roxanne – They have delicious food–

Robyn – All my Nice cream instead of ice cream, you know? It’s frozen fruit blended up with some flavors in it that are natural, and, yeah. I like that, I love that as much as ice cream now. It’s just a switch afflicting my brain and in my taste buds, and it’s just come incrementally over time. It didn’t happen overnight. And it’s not having that expectation that it’s gonna happen overnight, it’s an incremental thing that just happens over time. And this has really only kicked in for me in the last five years, probably, like the full-on changes that are made, and they’re continuing to happen.

Roxanne – Excellent. And I guess, you know, you’ve mentioned a few things, obviously, that it was the exercise and the change in eating habits that kick started, and obviously the retreat. Is there a first step you would recommend to anyone who wants to see, you know, to be you in five years, and to feel amazing, and to be, you know, looking amazing, and doing all they want to do. Is there a universal first step, or what would you recommend that they do to find what would be the best step for them?

Robyn – I think working on the mindset is a big thing. Getting yourself moving, maybe getting onto the yoga mat regularly and starting some mindfulness training will help you to get into that zone of being prepared to change the food. So I think that’s a big one. The recent thing that I’ve become attracted to has been Antony William, Medical Medium, he’s another big game changer for me, and he is all about, like, celery juice in the morning first thing, or just having lemon water. And that’s the same. Overcoming MS lifestyle is having that lemon water, and it’s just, like, picking one thing to start making a habit and just doing it consistently over a period of time. So I think you pick what feels good for you to start with, and then, when you know you can succeed at one thing, you know you can do the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing. It’s just one thing, changing one thing only at a time, over a period of time, and then bringing more, because you just taught yourself that you can do it just by doing one change, not everything all at once.

Roxanne – Yeah, I think people feel like, oh, I need a complete lifestyle change, let’s do this, this, this, and this, and you know, you just fall into overwhelm and nothing changes, really.

Robyn – I found that in a lot of things that I do. That overwhelm thing, and that’s a common message in this whole journey that I’ve noticed is, when I try to do it all at once, it’s like whoa, nah. You get confused, and overwhelm just kicks in. You don’t know which way to go, which way to start, and it all gets too hard, and you just give up. I know that’s my human nature, anyway, and I think from just observing others, that can be a common trait, for many of us. So you’ve just gotta change incrementally just one thing at a time. It could be more than one thing. You might find it’s too easy and just go with it. Go with what your intuition is telling you with the changes. For me, I’m happy to talk to people and have a conversation, listen to what they’ve got going on. And you know, that’s what coaches or mentors do. We can hear what’s going on, and we can just make a suggestion or talk to the person and just see what they feel, and let them pull it out of their own content of what’s going on in their life, what they feel is the first step, and then just go with it and support that, and then celebrate the fact that you did it for a period of weeks and you’ve noticed a change and a difference. And then, it’s all a process and a journey, and it’s gonna be a journey for the rest of your life, making these changes. Just accept that fact and move on, and do one thing at a time.

Roxanne – Absolutely. And now you’re a successful lifestyle wellness mentor, and I know that you do have a passion, particularly for helping people with chronic illness and MS in particular. We can see your own journey that you’ve walked. How does it feel now to be able to impart the lessons that you’ve learned, and to help guide people who, essentially you five to eight years ago, how does that feel to be able to do that now?

Robyn – Interestingly, it helps me heal. Like, being able to share that light of what I’ve done and helped someone to make the shifts, it lights me up, and that increases my healing journey. It’s like an energy exchange, and that’s what I love about it. So it’s that exchange of making the change. When somebody is ready to change, you know it, and it’s just awesome to get them into that zone and celebrate with them as well. And, yeah, that’s what I like about it. That’s what it.

Roxanne – Perfect, now that’s great. And I understand you’ve been doing a fair bit of blogging and other things in your spare time with raising a child, running a business, and.

Robyn – All happened.

Roxanne – Yep, absolutely. And so I guess I wanted to ask how it’s best for people to connect with yourself and to get those conversations happening.

Robyn – Absolutely. Now, at this point in time, Facebook is my groove, so you can find my on Facebook as Inspire Robyn. You can see a lot of my journey if you hashtag Inspire Robyn on Facebook. A lot of my videos, even from the past when things were messy are there, #InspireRobyn, so yeah. Or Robyn Ellis on Facebook. You’ll see Inspire Robyn connected to my profile.

Roxanne – Absolutely. And I guess, what was it that made you decide to share, not only the lows and the highs, to I guess keep it real and not do just the shiny bits when it comes to showing your journey?

Robyn – I’m a big fan of being authentic and being real, and I could show up and be the best version of me all the time that’s perfect, but that’s not who I really am. And I like to be able to have that transparency that, you know, I’m a human being, and I have bad days and I have good days, and I like that, being able to be relatable to others, because we’re all going through it. And I know, coming from where I’ve come from, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done on how you feel like as a pleaser or a victim, that kind of stuff going on, and that’s part of the journey of healing is going through that raw ugliness.

Roxanne – Yeah, yeah.

Robyn – Demonstrate that and show, I can show that I’ve been there, done that, I know where you were at, then people can relate to that from me. They know that I’ve been through it, they know that I’ve done the hard yards and had the bad times, and I sometimes still have bad times. It just makes me relatable and able to connect with those that are going through it too. I don’t like fake.

Roxanne – Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I guess, is it safe to say that you’re now having less bad days when it comes to your health and things now, yeah?

Robyn – I have recently went for my first MRI in about four and 1/2 years just before Christmas. And I went to my new neurologist, because we’d moved from Melbourne to Queensland three years ago for our lifestyle, just the temperate weather and being on a similar, not cold hot cold like Melbourne is. And I saw him in January, and he had nothing to fault about anything it is that I’m doing. So he said, you’re stable, whatever you’re doing, just keep doing it. So that’s one way.

Roxanne – That’s incredible. I can’t imagine how that would have felt to hear those words.

Robyn – Yeah. And he said, so, what are your plans for 2019, and I said, to share what I’m doing with others and help others to get on this natural healing path. And that’s my goal, and whatever it takes to shine that light on being natural and that you can do it, and I can help you if you need it, is my goal for the year.

Roxanne – Oh, that’s incredible. Thank you so much. And I just wanted to ask, for those of you, for those of us, sorry, viewers who aren’t on their own MS journey but might be watching this just out of interest and to hear your amazing story, what would you say are some of the biggest misconceptions that are out there about MS or any myths that you feel like need to be busted?

Robyn – I do know that there’s been a lot of change, ’cause I hadn’t been to a neurologist for over four years, and he said that neurology has changed a lot, and our attitude has changed. And I think you can fine the new age, new wave guys out there, or girls, to be your physician, they’re a bit more open. He was very Switzerland about it all, like, he couldn’t take sides on anything because he’s a professional, obviously.

Roxanne – Yeah, yeah yeah.

Robyn – Don’t have to settle for whoever you’re lumped with and the diagnosis, this is the feeling I had, and take your own path. And my biggest advice would be, is to learn to trust in yourself and your own gut feeling, and to take the responsibility for yourself to find a way to heal your body and your life, your way, and not just give it to whoever is the professional. Just know to go out there and find your, whoever’s gonna help you to find your way, because, at the end of the up to you, and we’ve all got the power in us. And, yeah, find someone that can help edify you and your healing journey, and that you can take control for yourself and you don’t need to give away your power to somebody else, and there are healing professions out there that can help you.

Roxanne – Yeah, absolutely.

Robyn – I would go down that road over the path that I started on, which was just trusting in doctors and their gospel, and what they’re saying, ’cause that there’s no doom and gloom, you can turn this around. I found MS has been a gift to me, because I needed to learn some lessons about how I live my life and how I show up. And so, I think, for all of us, there’s a gift in it, and we need to just go out and find what it is that we’re needing to learn to heal ourselves and get on that journey, and find the people around you to help you to get there, and then do it. And there’s people out there like me and others that I’ve connected with.

Roxanne – I was gonna say, there is a really strong community, isn’t there, that you can tap into, yeah?

Robyn – Yeah, and just be willing and open to find it, and just let go of that victim side of things, because I know that that’s in us all, a lot of us out there that are probably just being, and we’re probably unconsciously doing it.

Roxanne – Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, those are incredibly powerful words, I don’t think I can follow up anymore. Thank you so much, Robyn, for sharing your journey and your really empowering messages with us today. I really appreciate your time.

Robyn – Thank you, thanks Roxanne, I appreciate–

Roxanne – Not a problem. Yeah, excellent. Yeah, so Robyn’s given you details, we will pop them below in the comments as well so you can easily click through and connect with Robyn if you resonated today or if you wanted to find out any more about how she can help you, and obviously we would also love you to support The Phoenix Phenomenon. We do have a few more episodes coming up in this season, with more incredible interviewees just like Robyn, with their own unique journeys and experiences to share. So, like and subscribe, and follow us on Facebook, just at Roxanne McCarty-O’Kane, and you’ll be sure to not miss out on a single episode. So, thank you again, Robyn, for your time. It was really wonderful to chat to you today.

Robyn – Thank you, I’ve enjoyed it too. It’s appreciated.

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